The Prison Podcast Episode 1: Never Too Late
December 18, 2024
In this powerful first episode, The Prison Podcast dives into the gripping and emotional journey of Melissa, a woman grappling with loss, forgiveness, and love after the tragic death of her father during a family gathering. As she reflects on the profound impact of that day, Melissa opens up about the complex emotions that followed and the healing power of letting go.
Transcription
Michael: My name is Michael, and I’m the Insight Communication Director for Humans of San Quentin. The contents of this episode include strong language and graphic descriptions of violent crimes that may include sexual assault. This podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
Diane: Welcome to the Prison Podcast, presented by the Humans of San Quentin. My name is Diane Kahn, I’m the Executive Director of Humans of San Quentin, a nonprofit dedicated to telling the stories of the incarcerated. It all started in 2017 when I began teaching in prisons. I was blown away by the men’s truth and vulnerability. In 2023, I had the profound honor of escorting survivors into San Quentin for a day of peace held in their yard. This event was truly moving as it gave each person the stage to share their stories in front of a thousand men, many of whom had committed similar crimes as each person spoke their words resonated deeply with everyone present. Bringing many to tears and leaving a lasting impact It was truly a day of healing and a powerful reminder of the strength and change that one person’s story can inspire in so many others. As I was walking in a prison that day, I met a woman named Martina, a victim-offender mediator with the Ahimsa Collective. She asked if I’d be interested in sharing the voices of people who had already participated in a dialogue. I instantly got goosebumps because up until that point, I had only had the opportunity to share stories of those incarcerated and didn’t think sharing the victim’s stories would be a possibility. In fact, to this day, with the stories we share at the Humans of San Quentin, I am always conscious of the risk of re-traumatizing people with the stories we share from the perspective of the offenders. This opportunity, however, is one I am more than honored to continue sharing.
Diane: Our goal with this series is to give you a look into one form of restorative justice that is healing both those in the free world and the humans incarcerated. It’s called the victim-offender dialogue. Started by the AHIMSA Collective, the victim-offender dialogue intersects with restorative justice, transformative justice, healing justice, and ending sexual violence movements. In practice, a victim Offender Dialogue is a face-to-face meeting between the person who was harmed and the person responsible for the harm. This season, I have the pleasure of sitting down with five victims, four offenders, Martina and Jorge, the artist behind the Prison Podcast logo.
Diane: Our first story comes from Melissa. In the summer of 1993, her father’s life was tragically taken at her aunt’s wedding party. 29 years later, after years of curiosity, she met Matthew, the man responsible for killing her father. Her story may be difficult to hear, but I urge you to stay with us.
Melissa: I was only seven. We were there for my aunt’s wedding, and my dad’s sister, and the hardest thing about it that I know my mom sits with all the time is that my dad didn’t want to come. My dad didn’t want to come down for a sister’s wedding because it was already her fourth marriage and he was like, “No, I don’t want to go down and my mom argued with him. Till.” I’ve read the police report. It started… Matthew came outside and started peeing and when he peed, he peed on my aunt’s leg, my dad’s sister. My uncle Danny, my dad’s brother, started to fight with him because of this. My dad grabbed a baseball. I went in the middle of Matthew and my uncle Danny to stop the fight. When he did that, Matthew ran inside, pulled the phone cord out of the wall, grabbed the knife, went out the front door, jumped the side fence, came at my dad from behind, pushed him, and then stabbed him multiple times. Matthew was actually my mom’s brother’s best friend at the time.
Diane: For a long time, Matthew refused to take responsibility for Melissa’s dad’s death. During court hearings, both Matthew and his family insisted on his innocence.
Melissa: He never took ownership of it. Every parole hearing, he said, I started a fight and I did stab him, but I wasn’t the one that killed him. Everybody was there that night. And even Matthew’s family was there that night. His brothers were there. I actually held on to more anger for Matthew’s brother than I did for him for a long time because after Matthew had stabbed my dad multiple times and he was on the ground getting CPR, his brother was kicking my dad. And so, and nothing ever happened to him. He never got in trouble, never got arrested. And so I held, I actually held on to more hate for him than I did for Matthew growing up.
Diane: Matthew was convicted of her father’s murder. Let’s hear from Melissa about how this changed her life.
Melissa: Life was never the same after that. And everything went so fast. My mom was heavily medicated after that. Her parents went up to Seattle, sold everything and moved us down here within weeks. I think they should have allowed my mom some time and allowed us to go back to Seattle because staying there was one of the worst things she could have ever done for herself mentally. She watched her husband be murdered in front of her. She’s just a five-minute drive from where it all happened. My mom shut down that day. She’s never been the same.
Diane: Melissa and her family ended up living in the exact same neighborhood where her father was killed and there was no escaping her trauma. Her mother was struggling mentally and so was Melissa.
Melissa: I walked a bad troubled path growing up after my dad died. I’ve been angry my entire upbringing because when I say I had a troubled life, I chose to go down very bad paths. I was doing drugs. I was a runaway at 16. I had my poster everywhere. I’ve been in trouble. I have fought. I am a survivor of two suicide attempts. I didn’t have my kids with me for a time period. I didn’t have custody of my kids until they got older. And so I know that even if you love your kids, Sometimes you’re just not doing the things that are right for them and I have them back with me now. It’s been a long, long road to recovery and it’s such a beautiful thing that when I say people can change, like I mean it.
Diane: Melissa found the strength to see the good in someone, even from the man who killed her father. She believes that Matthew can change. She shares with us the devastating impact the single act of violence had on her family from her mother to her children. But amidst the heartbreak, she passes on a gift of forgiveness to her daughter, a powerful reminder that even in the darkest moments, there’s room for hope and healing.
Melissa: I see the way that this has destroyed my family and I didn’t want it anymore. I have kids who are 16, 17, and 19. And I see the struggles that they’re going through and my daughter just recently lost her father as well and it’s not something that I ever could imagine. I never thought I’d have to see my daughter go through everything that I had to go through and it really just knocked me down and I wanted better for her. I wanted her to see that forgiveness is something that she could have in life, that she doesn’t have to be so angry, and that she doesn’t need to hold on to this for her whole entire life because if she does, it’s gonna destroy her. So that’s why I wanted to do the victim-offender dialogue too.
Diane: Through the years, Melissa’s undergone much trauma, and as more came her way in 2015 when she asked to sit down with Matthew after his first parole hearing in prison.
Melissa: Matthew refused to come out and stipulated and it was me and my mom and my aunt there and I asked his attorney if he would come out and just talk with me and she said he was extremely overwhelmed and he was crying but that he couldn’t do it and so we left that day and you know my mom and aunt were upset and wanted to know why I wanted to talk to him. And I told them that I just wanted to know who he was as a person and what the situation was.
Diane: Five months later, Melissa received a surprising call from a distant relative.
Melissa: And she was like, “Hey, I have this letter from Matthew. “I’ve known him since I was in high school. “I don’t know if you want it or not.” And I said, “Yes, absolutely.” And this was in 2015. And I read the letter. And at that point, I told myself, “Okay, I forgive him, but I’m moving forward and I want nothing to do with him. I don’t want to talk to him. I don’t like what’s said in the letter.” He took semi-ownership and said, “There was a fight and I was involved in it, but I’m not the one who did the fatal blow. I’m not the one who actually killed him, it is what was said in the letter.” So at that point, I just said, you know, I want to move forward in my life and I don’t want to go back to that and deal with that. And, but I still had this yearning to meet him and still talk to him.
Diane: Ultimately, Melissa chose not to communicate with Matthew. Another five years passed when the COVID pandemic began, she found herself empathizing with people in prison, confined for hours each day, and her thoughts turned to you.
Melissa: I sat here and I watched how everybody was going stir-crazy. I watched how people were getting mad that they couldn’t just simply go to the grocery store. And I couldn’t even imagine beginning to think about what the incarcerated mental health was like, like what they were going through during this time period. And I kept telling myself I could get out and I could leave these people cannot. What’s that doing to them? How is that helping them? How is that helping them re-enter society? And so I just really wanted to meet him and so I reached out to victim services and asked what the process was if I could write to him if I could talk to him and that’s when they put me in touch with Martina.
Diane: Martina, remember that name because it will be pivotal throughout this podcast. In an upcoming episode, we’ll delve into who Martina is and her profound impact on both incarcerated people and survivors of violent crime.
Melissa: They were thinking that it was going to take about a year or more for me even to get inside to meet him. And so I was thinking, oh, this will be a long process. And I met Martina in January of 2022. And all of a sudden I was told that we were probably going to meet him sooner. And I’m like, wait, what? And so in July, It’s already been six months now, July comes, and my facilitators come to see me. We have lots of meetings, and they go meet with Matthew. And then all of a sudden in November, like two days after Thanksgiving, I had my victim-offender dialogue.
Diane: Several months later, Melissa arrives at the gate to St. Quentin with her husband and mother-in-law, ready to sit down with Matthew.
Melissa: When I first went inside, my husband and I were asking how long we could actually be there. I was like, I don’t know, probably an hour. That’s what I was thinking and we ended up being there for seven hours. My emotions were all over the place. I was nervous. I was scared. We walked in, and they sat us in the hall, which they weren’t supposed to, I guess do it the way they did because they walked him right in front of me and in but I was supposed to be out when they walked him in. And so that was really nerve-wracking. I was shaking. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know whether I was going to go in there and hug him, or whether I was going to go in there and be angry because at that point I already felt peace going in there. But I didn’t know how things were going to change once we sat down. Once I walked in and he was shackled and they asked him to take a moment off and he just looked at me and wrote down and I just hugged him and I just grabbed him and just hugged him while he cried and it was super emotional.
Diane: She learned about his past. Both of Matthew’s parents were alcoholics. He told Melissa about how he grew up around drugs and alcohol from a young age. How his dad would make his brothers fistfight his brothers for no reason in particular. Matthew both witnessed and experienced domestic abuse. She understood, especially from her own experiences, how that could affect the person.
Melissa: I got to know who Matthew was as a person, as a human being. And it made me realize that he didn’t wake up that day wanting to harm somebody. I think that we all make bad decisions in life. Some people get caught and some people don’t. Some people get lucky and some people don’t. I think that drugs and alcohol played a huge factor in what he did. I think his childhood played a huge factor in what he did. So I think that night he had just done speed like an hour before. And so I think that played a huge factor in it. When the fight broke out, he had a fight or flight moment and he just was like, “I’m defending.” Like, I don’t know what truly went through his mind. He’s told himself a story for the last 30 years and I Don’t take that away from him.
Diane: Melissa had to make a decision beforehand on what she was going to do if Matthew didn’t take responsibility for Dad’s murder.
Melissa: When I had my victim-offender dialogue I went on saying I didn’t want to know the details of the crime. I don’t want to hear who’s at fault, but if you are willing to talk about your story and how you see it. I’m okay with that But I don’t need it. I was choosing to go in there And I was choosing to forgive and move forward because I wanted a better life for myself. The moment that I had my victim-offender dialogue. He took full ownership of everything. Even if he didn’t believe it, he took full ownership of everything for me. That’s all I could ask for. And when I left that place, it felt like I was leaving behind somebody and it made me incredibly sad. It was the first time in my entire life I felt like I was exactly where I was supposed to be. I’ve struggled to know where I am supposed to be when it comes to work. I’ve just worked to pay the bills. It’s not been something enjoyable, something I’ve wanted. And when I walked out of San Quentin that day, I was like, this is where I’m supposed to be. This is what I’m supposed to be doing in life. I’m supposed to tell my story. I’m supposed to help others.
Diane: Something in Melissa changed at that moment. She no longer sees herself as a survivor but as a healing partner. She became an advocate for Matthew, attending his parole hearings, talking to his family, and encouraging him to continue to work on himself.
Melissa: There were so many similarities between me and him as human beings. I think that if somebody is willing to put in the work, then they deserve a second chance. I forgive him because hating him only hurts me. It has destroyed my entire family. My brother is homeless. My mom doesn’t speak to anybody. My mom is extremely sick. I know that my mom is going to die soon. And it kills me that she holds on to so much hate. And this is something that I wish she could be a part of. I didn’t know if I was going to survive life. I’m a survivor of two suicide attempts. Going inside and having the victim-offender dialogue saved my life. I can’t say it enough. It saved my life. It saved me as a person, as a mother, as a wife, and as a friend. It has made me a better person. It has helped me heal in so many ways that I could have ever imagined. And so I know eventually he’s going to get out and instead of being a part of the problem, I want to be a part of the solution.” And then by January of 2023, he was requesting an earlier parole hearing. And that really didn’t sit well with me because I knew he wasn’t ready. I knew that he had this victim-offender dialogue and he was just like, “I need to be out. I need to make changes. I needed to go, he wanted to go, go, go. And I’m happy for him, but The work starts inside and he has to understand that the work begins within himself and with drugs and alcohol and fights that he was still getting into, it’s only been a couple of years and he’s barely started doing the work. So when he requested that earlier parole hearing, I had to let my family know what I was doing because even though the VOD isn’t supposed to be used or talked about, As he asked for an earlier parole hearing, it may come out why we were going to be there. And so I started calling people and telling them and talking to them. And for the most part, my aunts and my uncle said: we support your decision. We’ve forgiven him, but that’s it. That’s it. They want nothing to do with him. They know who he was before. I don’t want him to get out and not have the correct resources and hurt somebody else or hurt himself. That’s just not what I want in life. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I want better for him. I want him to use his story to help people, to help the youth, to help other offenders who think why do I have to do better? I’m just gonna be here forever.
I feel like the men and women inside don’t have enough encouragement. I look at my children and I see how they are when they’re encouraged or when they’re getting in trouble. And I see what that does to them mentally. So I can’t imagine what the prison system does to the people inside mentally. I just think that if somebody’s willing to work hard and put in the work and do the programs, then they deserve a second chance. We all make mistakes in life and we shouldn’t be defined by our past. That’s the biggest problem is society doesn’t allow the incarcerated to change. They think that they’re monsters. They think that they committed a crime, locked them up, and threw away the key, but how are we supposed to heal as a society? How are we supposed to expect them to get out and just be okay? How are we supposed to expect them not to re-offend if we’re not there to help them? Some people just genuinely need help. Some people don’t know how to ask for help. A lot of people will sit here and say, Well, I had a bad life, and look at me. I came out fine. I’m a lawyer. Good for you. Amazing. That doesn’t mean we’d be down to people who don’t know how to ask for help. I feel like when a crime is committed, they completely separate the offender and the victim survivor, and I understand that it’s for the safety of the victim-survivor, but I think that everything should be told of what’s available when it comes to counseling, victim-offender dialogues, anything like that, but it’s just not. It took me reaching out to ask questions. I think that during the parole hearings and during any hearings, the men in blue are told not to make eye contact with their survivors. I think that causes a huge barrier. I think that causes more hate. I just want to think about changing the world. I want change in our justice system. I want change in our court processes. I want to tell my story to everyone who will listen. I think the higher-ups need to understand.
Diane: Melissa is determined to revolutionize the justice system. Her profound experiences in victim-offender dialogues has transformed her life in countless ways, as she passionately advocates for reformative justice moving forward.
Melissa: When I went back in April, a gentleman by the name of Robert came up to me. Robert happens to be my dad’s name. And this guy, Robert, said, I just want to let you know that I am getting out on July 7. And I promise to never hurt somebody again because of you and your story. And he signed his pledge, and he gave it to me. And it’s on my wall in my office. And it’s the most meaningful thing ever. And I realize that my story has a huge impact and I think that more survivors need to come in and tell their story and the impact it has because it is a powerful thing.
These men and women, they listen when we’re there. They hold so much space and respect for these victims coming inside. They’re so respectful. I realize that so many of them want to learn. They’re so talented and no one knows this. And it’s such a beautiful thing. And I think the world needs to see it.
Diane: The world does need to see it and hear it. Next week, you’ll hear a story from Matthew, the man who took her father’s life and the work he had done to turn his life around. If you or someone you know is interested in participating in a victim-offender dialogue, reach out to your local department of corrections. If these services are available, consider advocating for them through your local representative. Lastly, if you’re enjoying the podcast, please write, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform, and share it with those who might find it meaningful.
